David Maples: [00:00:05] Welcome to episode two of Ministry Maximizer: The Podcast. I’m one of your hosts, David Maples.

Carla Green: [00:00:12] And I’m here joined by… I’m the other host, Carla Green. I am the founder of Activate the Church Ministries and a ministry leader and chaplain passionate about seeing churches and ministries take off and maximize their impact in whatever God has called them to do.

David Maples: [00:00:28] And just to reintroduce myself to the listeners out there, my name is David Maples. I have several different investment ventures. I run a technology company called Cal-Ray and a digital marketing company called Catapult. But the big thing I do is I work in artificial intelligence. So I represent kind of the technology arm of the show, so to speak. So I’m here to help talk about the technology tools that we have created that we’re using actively to help activate the church and move them forward, to talk about Carla’s adventure there.

[00:00:59] We’re really excited to dive into episode two here, which we’ve entitled “Digital Discipleship.” And it’s about using artificial intelligence to deepen spiritual growth.

[01:11] So, without much further ado, in this episode in particular, I’m going to be relying heavily on Carla for certain questions about this because I want her as someone who’s getting her doctorate in theology, has worked in churches for years, and understands a lot of these things. I want her to define some of those kind of terms that the church uses.

[01:31] So why don’t you tell me, in your definition, what is discipleship? From a, I guess an analog, non-digital standpoint, what would traditional discipleship be?

Carla Green: [01:40] Right. So I would go to Matthew 28, where it’s the Great Commission, where Jesus has said that all authority has been given to me and now go into all the world and make disciples of all nations. So it’s basically the command, the instructions that he gave the disciples is to go do what I’ve done for you.

[01:58] So that means you are taking people within the church and training them up to be leaders, really to be students of students of the faith. So they know their Bibles, they know how to pray, they know how to navigate life because they understand the nature of God, his ways, and the things… even the enemy, for that matter.

[02:18] And so this is really important in this season of life, I think, because I think the church is losing some of that discipleship. I grew up in the church all through the seventies and eighties and early nineties, people were going to Sunday school. That kind of went away and moved into small groups. And so the discipleship wasn’t one central teacher that was learning, it was like these ministry, these just lay people that were doing small groups, which that was fine if they were getting trained.

[02:47] And then everybody started getting busy, and Sundays and Wednesdays were no longer sacred. They became times where school, school sports clubs would meet on Sundays and Wednesdays, and that was never allowed when I was going through school. It was kind of like those were the days that church happened. And so then we come into the 2000s, it’s just getting busier, and then COVID hits and we’re back inside and there’s not much going on at all then when it comes to discipleship. And so I think we’ve moved away from it. And you can definitely see that the church is not as mature as it used to be. And so I think there’s a cry for, how do we do discipleship now?

David Maples: [03:30] So when you talk to people in the faith and you ask them, is discipleship a big conversation piece? Is that something that they’re really wrestling with?

Carla Green: [03:41] Yes. So specifically at one of the churches I go to, it’s a very large church, probably 10 to 12,000 people per Sunday, 12 locations. And he even says from the pulpit, they have baptisms every weekend, several, and he says it keeps him up at night because they don’t have a discipleship program to take the people who have said yes to Jesus and move them forward in the faith to mature them.

[04:05] Because in some ways, I have always said that you can become a Christian, and if you don’t understand the faith, then you might have just put a target on your back for the enemy, saying, “Oh, there’s a new Christian, I’m going after that.” And if you don’t have the tools of the faith in order to strengthen yourself and understand it, what got you in the experience and the emotion of saying yes to Jesus is not going to sustain you when life hits. And so that’s the thing, that’s the training that believers need, and you’re never done. I mean, I’m going through my doctorate and learning another level, and it’s exciting. And so, so to me, it’s a passion of mine. Discipleship is definitely a passion of mine.

David Maples: [04:49] So, for the purposes and context of this episode, we’re talking about digital discipleship in particular. And I think what we need to start with is a definition of what that is so we know what we’re discussing today. I’ve been a big believer for a long time that when you’re introducing a topic to people that may be new to them or may not, you need to have a common language or agreed upon terms. Because otherwise, you could literally be two ships in a night passing each other. You’re talking about the exact same thing, and you just don’t realize it.

[05:21] So as I see it, from the context of what you’re saying, digital discipleship is the intentional use of using digital tools, including, for example, AI, in this kind of process of spiritual maturation or maturity, the journey of becoming more like Jesus Christ.

[05:38] And I think it’s important to maintain a perspective that that technology, no matter how advanced it is, is merely a means to the end. It’s not the goal in itself. Just because you can use GPT or any of these AI tools, for example… let me take this to a secular example, because I think this may work for people in the audience who are maybe not in the faith or not in the church. High school kids, a lot of them right now, are using artificial intelligence to help them finish their schoolwork. They’re not reading Hamlet, they’re not struggling with these pieces of literature from history or whatever the subject is, they’re just literally going to the end itself. They’re saying, “Give me the answer.”

[06:18] And the point of this, of the experiment, and using… the reason you struggle with Shakespearean tragedies is not just because of the human themes and norms and whatever is in there, is that that process, that critical thinking skill that develops in that process, is akin to the spiritual maturation in this digital discipleship journey. Is that incorrect or is it right?

Carla Green: [06:39] Say… Yes, I think so.

David Maples: [06:41] Let me, maybe I can explain this a little bit better. So the reason you struggle with these, the reason you read Plato’s Republic or whatever these pieces of… and by the way, that’s, I think it’s a great thing to learn. The reason you study logic and rhetoric, you’re not looking for the end, you’re not looking for the answer. It’s because the journey there is how you develop as a human. The journey there is how you learn these things and can apply those other places in your life. If you just look at the end itself, “Oh, look at how smart I am, I have the right answer,” the point of the exercise was to go through the exercise. It wasn’t just to get the right answer because that journey, that crucible that forges you, so to speak, is what’s important.

[07:20] And when I’m thinking about maturing in your spiritual journey and you’re creating disciples, it’s not just about having the answer, it’s about understanding it’s a journey and you improve through the process.

Carla Green: [07:30] Right. This is not about being able to go on Bible Bowl and do the best at Bible trivia. It’s not about that. It’s not about…

David Maples: [07:37] Answer is Ruth, chapter five, verse two. Thank you.

Carla Green: [07:40] Exactly. No, it’s not that at all. It is the… you’re absolutely right, David. It’s about having the maturity, developing maturity as you go and then being able to take biblical concepts and put them in every day and listen to the Holy Spirit and and develop that relationship. Because you don’t just go from saying yes to to heaven’s doors. I mean, you might if you’re doing deathbed, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

[08:04] And it also says in Romans 12 is that we’re to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And so, it… I believe, and this is a deeper conversation, but I believe there is a definite advantage to being a Christian in the marketplace, in your in your home, whatever. It’s it’s it’s practical because I have, I have a straight shot to heaven and all of the answers are, you know, all of the answers are already in heaven. The Holy Spirit knows everything. He’s brilliant. So why wouldn’t I want to know that?

[08:37] And it’s not just about prayer because I need to know a pattern of, you know, “Well, does this fit with what’s in the Bible? Like, is this something that God would do?” “Yes, I’ve already seen it here.” Like, I’ve seen, I’ve seen miracles, I’ve seen where, you know, God gives, you know, divine information to people. And so I know that it’s true. And so you have to develop that relationship and that that dance, so to speak, with the with heaven in order to even, in order to to do life and do it well.

[09:05] So like we’re talking about AI, but I also think there’s SI, which is Spiritual Intelligence, that in order to have that level of… there’s definitely an advantage. And there’s biblical story after biblical story that is incredibly interesting of how, you know, Daniel in the Old Testament, you know, had a knowledge that only came from heaven in order for… I mean, he he went through four kings in a pagan nation and and led things forward. Nehemiah completely rebuilt a city. You know, Joseph became second in command after he was, you know, went through prison and being, you know, falsely accused.

[09:40] You know, so just think about even Joseph’s story, which a lot of people know because of Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat and it’s not all wrong, it’s mostly right. And so the… but even through that, like if you, you know, if you say yes to Jesus and have all these hardships and don’t know him, then you’re going to fall away. But look at what happened when he stayed with it and stayed true. He became second in command to Egypt. You know, and the whole world was was looking at him. You know, or the wisdom of Solomon or David and how he faced his giants. I mean, they’re they’re not just little stories, they’re these big stories that you keep unwrapping as you’re at different points in your life, you’re going to pick up different points. But if you don’t know how to do that, which is the discipleship piece, then you’re not going to be able to glean what you have. So it’s not just about the information. You’re right.

David Maples: [10:26] So as I understand this now, it’s that journey… and there was a point you just made that I thought was really interesting. How as you move through the different seasons of your life, the same biblical story may resonate differently. When you go back and read it differently, you’re going to get entirely different things out of these stories. You’re going to understand the things in context. I, for one, was… I was never a big mercy person for a long time in my life. You know, I think very young, I think I was more of a justice person, right? And and I think as I’ve gotten older and I now think the the story of mercy is is more important, you know? And and I just think it’s interesting, like how that journey changes throughout your life.

[11:09] And so with digital discipleship, what we’re looking for is a way to use digital tools to enhance this process. Now, I will go ahead and say something about the church. Historically, the church has adopted technology, albeit a bit slowly. I mean, obviously there’s different churches of all kinds, but historically, adopting the printing press took a little while. Radio was a big thing for the church for a long time. Like, how do you use this tool? What do you use this tool for? Is there any reason?

[11:36] And then there’s always, there’s always kind of the side of the church that says, what about the purists? You know, you have these people who just say, “Oh, we should only do it the following way.” And I don’t know. If Jesus were to show up tomorrow, I guarantee you he would be using all of the above, because it’s about, it’s about, it’s about the mission. It’s about the, the journey. And the individual tool, it’s just a tool. But I do think as we talk about digital discipleship today, we probably should talk about the real challenges in that.

[12:03] The first one I wanted to talk about as a little bit is the Jesus’s model of discipleship. What was Jesus’s model of discipleship?

Carla Green: [12:10] Well, his was, “Come follow me.” And so, I mean, basically he, you know, he didn’t even ask them to like, become Christians. He asked them to follow him and then to just do life with with him. And so he, you know, had followers that he sat and he, you know, they sat at his feet and he he taught them scripture and put it in the framework of what it, what it meant for him to come as Messiah.

[12:33] And then he showed, he demonstrated. So, you know, it first was truth and then it’s, you know, signs and wonders. So he showed the miracles, he showed people how to serve, he showed how to be hospitable, he showed them how to be humble, he showed them how to be angry at the church. Because I mean, you know, you’re absolutely right. I mean, if if Jesus came back today in the way that he came back then—not if he comes back again, that’s something different, and that’s not this this talk right now—but he would definitely not have any trouble offending the church by what they think is the right way to to do it. If it’s the way that if it’s to get the message out and to show who, you know, the love of who he is and to show more of the kingdom so more of the kingdom will come, then he would use it. I absolutely, I absolutely believe he would use it. I mean, he created, he created the minds who are creating it. Why wouldn’t he want to use it in that way? So…

David Maples: [13:22] Jesus, in particular though, um, and if I’m incorrect, correct me on this, Jesus approached discipleship with real intentionality. He didn’t choose the disciples haphazardly. His core of twelve, he invested heavily in them with like specific purposes in mind. It was about these relationships, these one-to-one communications. I mean, you know, and those things. And he was actively involved in the the shaping of all these disciples. You know, he would… but remember, he would, it wasn’t just teaching and, but I want to say like Jesus was like the ultimate teacher and coach all rolled into one. Because he would also challenge them to be better or challenge them on things. And I think it was… I don’t even know what to relate it to, but I think that’s kind of, that’s what I’ve I think about a lot with like Jesus, Jesus had a plan. Um, and and approached these things.

[14:20] But one of the things I’ve thought about a lot lately as we’ve been talking about the podcast and AI, etc, is it’s hard to scale that kind of one-on-one formation. It’s very… in the modern world, you know, you have all these different mediums. And we’re talking about in particular artificial intelligence, right? But it’s it’s hard to scale a lot of that stuff.

[14:43] So, what are your thoughts about like challenges right now for like, how do churches currently approach discipleship? You talked about at a larger church, some of the challenges they’re facing. What do you, what do you see as challenges to this right now?

Carla Green: [14:54] I think it is, I think there’s all different kinds of tools available to us. So it doesn’t have to be the classic, “Come to the church, learn this.” It can be online, it can be in this format of even Zoom and that type of thing. But then at some point, you’re going to have to get together and and walk it out so other people can walk it out in their life.

[15:17] So if I’m being taught, like maybe I don’t know how to pray well, like I’m going to have to eventually see you, talk to you, go out and pray for people. So then when I go to my workplace, I can go pray for people. Like at some point you’re going to have to have that.

[15:31] But, but I think, um, I think it’s also how do you simplify it and understand… and I think this is one way that AI can help is that, like, the world is changing quite a bit and not just technology, but even in what we believe. There are lots of people who are deconstructing their faith and because of the immigration, however you think about that, and we’re not talking politics, because of the influx of different faiths, you know, there’s there’s that that we haven’t had to deal with before or at this level.

[16:01] So I think AI can, like a lot of, I would say a lot of… most church people would not necessarily know how to handle, you know, a a large Muslim community and how can I disciple that or how can I approach that? And so I think AI could break down some of those… what are the objections that I’m going to run into? What are the… like, can ask it great questions to think about things or even technology. Like how are the the geeks and nerds of the world, you know, how do we reach them and how do or how do we even disciple those types of people that are coming in? Because it’s starting at a different point because they haven’t had, they haven’t necessarily been raised in the church.

[16:41] And so you’re having to start at a whole different place. And so the people who might be the ones teaching may have grown up in church. So for example, Easter Sunday, which was just a couple weeks ago, from our standpoint, and so we went to the service and it’s a seeker church, but yet he talked about Zacchaeus and even sang the song from when I was a kid. But it’s a seeker church. How many people know that? Like, he talked about the story as if people knew it.

[17:10] And so I think that will help level the playing field a little bit. And then I also think of how do we get all these ideas? Like if I were going to to build a program, and this is actually what I’ve used it for, how do I get somebody that has my thoughts to do the admin piece of what I need done? Well, the best thing to do is to take my thoughts and put them into AI instead of trying to explain it to somebody else in some ways. And maybe you have a different thought about that. But I see it as kind of cloning what I’m already thinking and then being able to massage it and finesse it in the way and then putting it in the tools that make the most sense to get it out into what the world’s expecting.

David Maples: [17:49] Uh, to your point, how I use AI personally, I currently have a couple of recorders and I don’t just do it on my phone because there’s issues with that. I feel like, I actually recommend if someone’s going to try to do what I’m suggesting to do right now, that you invest in a recorder. So I have these little, I have these little like, uh, these little DJI recorders that I can clip onto a lapel and record. We use these for professional video recording, podcasting, they’re like interview mics. But the reality of it is is that this thing has been an incredible time saver for me. And people have other options to do this. But I don’t recommend, and I know everybody’s got a phone in their pocket, everybody has a smartphone. I don’t necessarily recommend smartphones for this activity because I believe in purpose… I believe in purpose-specific tools, and I’ll explain why.

[18:46] And and I think this is kind of where I go with Ministry Maximizer and other things, is that there’s a lot of distractions in the world. And the challenge with a phone is it has a lot of challenges and other temptations on there, right? You know, there’s social media and all that stuff’s on my phone. I could pick up my phone and, “Oh my gosh, I’m going to record my thing that I’ve said I’m going to do right now,” and there’s a text message from my family or there’s a phone call I need to respond to or there’s ten other things. And that is literally hijacking my intent.

[19:16] And I talked about, briefly I mentioned that I, you know, I thought Jesus came to this really with intentionality and a plan. I think with anything that you’re doing, I think having a purpose-driven tool for it, um, helps. So from my standpoint, here’s what I do, and this is what you just suggested doing. I will literally record my thoughts on this and it’s recorded in an audio file format. And then in Ministry Maximizer, you can literally use, you take your file, you attach it inside the program, and you say, “Take this and turn this into the following,” or “Give me feedback on this.”

[19:52] And by doing that, it’s actually, it’s very simple for me. Now there are other tools on the market place you can buy, and I’ve seen a lot of them. You don’t have to buy this kind of recorder or anything else. But the reality of it is for me, that works and helps me stay on task. And to your point, in some cases, and actually in many cases, I can record my own thoughts for what I’m trying to generate as an article or a newsletter or something like that. I can do that, and then those are actually powered by me and the AI is literally acting as a bit of a ghost writer using that material and taking my wandering, circuitous thoughts, or what have you, and I talk for 10 minutes, and then it boils that down to… Now, as a human, you would have heard me talk for 10 minutes and you would have gotten the point of the story. But if I were to literally transcribe what I said and just give it to you, you’re going to be like, you’re going to be lost. But for this, this is what I… I believe in purpose-built tools, so I’m only holding that up as an example.

[20:43] So from my standpoint, that’s how I look at some of these things. And to your point, the AI could be useful as like a clone or to do these things faster. I do think it’s important in the long run, and this is something you just said, churches really probably need to wrestle with the context problem. And it’s one thing if somebody’s come to your Bible study for the past five weeks. They have context on what comes next. But if somebody comes to your church and they’re new and I’m doing a deep cut from the book of Numbers, that may be really, that may be hard for them to understand.

Carla Green: [21:19] Right.

David Maples: [21:20] The point about, and I I’ve talked about this in some other stuff I’ve done, I always talk about the power of your message is measured at the ear that is hearing it. It is not at my mouth that is speaking it. It is not the intent of what I am saying. It is the person who’s hearing it and how they interpret those words. And if they do not interpret those words or walk away understanding what I’m trying to communicate, then we have a failure to communicate. It’s on me, it’s my fault.

[21:49] And I believe that one of the most powerful things, this might be a very long way to say this, one of the most powerful things AI can do is help you talk about it. So if you say every time you prepare a sermon, maybe that’s a new way to think about it. Just say, “Here are the kind of people coming to my church now. Here’s what we’ve been looking at. How do I introduce this sermon in a way so that people all get the background information?” And it doesn’t have to be five minutes or 10 minutes of background information, it could be 90 seconds.

Carla Green: [22:17] Right.

David Maples: [22:18] So, you and I are familiar with the story of Daniel, right? Everybody knows the story of Daniel and the lion’s den. Now, I said that, but not everybody, if they’re not raised in a Christian tradition, is going to understand the story of Daniel and the lion’s den. You might say, “Who’s Daniel?”

Carla Green: [22:31] Right.

David Maples: [22:32] And I don’t know, just, this is the funniest thing. I know we’re only in the second episode recording right now, so many little things you say are just like setting my brain on fire right now. It’s like you say this and I’m like, “Wow, I hadn’t, I hadn’t thought about that. I really had not thought about that.”

[22:45] And so AI could be a very good tool to help you understand, “Hey, here’s my…” I’m going to record my thoughts for my sermon. And by the way, I actually think that’s where a lot of people should start. Yes, you can type it into Ministry Maximizer, you can ask it for ideas, but I think if you’ve actually been, if you’ve been steeped in a theological tradition or if you are head of your church, you probably have done some training on how to write a sermon. I think recording your ideas, just free form… I don’t know. I’m a big believer in thinking while walking.

Carla Green: [23:13] Right. And I think the, um, if you… it’s interesting because it’s kind of a double-edged sword or there’s a couple of things I’ve thought about out there. It’s, if you are trained enough or, you know, trained in theology and divinity, then your… sorry, your brain is like going “blah” with all these things that you want to teach people, right? Because I have, you know, 50 years of being a Christian and I want to tell everybody I know everything, but yet the world can’t handle what I know. And so it’s, how do you break it down? Like, it it helps you calm down and break it into bite-sized pieces.

[23:46] And then I was also wondering too, because Jesus spoke in parables, right? I mean, imagine how he felt coming from having all these amazing kingdom concepts of heaven and that the Holy Spirit had downloaded to him because he was also a man, which that’s a whole other conversation. But, but he had to speak in parables in order for for the world to get it. And so how… like, I’m, it’s interesting of, and I’ve, I want to do this with Ministry Maximizer as soon as we get off, to be honest. I want to put a parable in Ministry Maximizer and say, “Make it for today.”

David Maples: [24:17] I just wrote that down. Okay, so we are going to build… So what’s the point of this podcast? We are building in real time. That’s right. Exactly.

Carla Green: [24:25] A modern-day reference, a parable builder.

David Maples: [24:27] Man, I tell… that would be… yeah, I hadn’t thought about that, but that’s brilliant.

Carla Green: [24:32] It is. Thank you. It’s the Holy Spirit. Not AI, Holy Spirit, SI. And so, and the other thing too is, shameless plug, but also how this all came together was I, because people don’t know their Bible stories, they don’t know their Bible characters, and I was painfully aware of that when I was teaching and I would make a reference and I’m like, “Man, you’re not going to get this because you don’t know the reference.”

[24:54] So I have a 52-week challenge that I actually wrote using Ministry Maximizer, or it’s parent, Easy Prompter. Um, and so, and I actually didn’t have time to to do what I needed to do, but it was 52 weeks of knowing, like, of just a blurb on every, on 52 different Bible characters. And I used AI to do it because of timing. And I figured, you know, it was more important… I was still wrestling with the whole idea of AI, but I would, but I knew I needed to get this out and I didn’t have time to sit down and read about 52 different characters in all the context that it had. I read about it, but then then to go ahead and write another article about it as well, I didn’t have that kind of time last year.

[25:39] And so I used David Maples’ tools, the Ministry Maximizer and Easy Prompter to to put it together, and it was beautiful. And I actually, I was impressed that I actually did 52 weeks and then put it together. So we’ll probably have a link to that too in this as well.

David Maples: [25:54] Yeah, we’ll, we’ll put that in the show notes so if people want to get a copy of that, they can go there and get one.

Carla Green: [25:58] But it’s those kinds of things. So like, even putting together, like if you’re doing a sermon series and you want to do out of the sermon series, you want to build a discipleship track, you can do a little booklet pretty easily with Ministry Maximizer. And they’re all your thoughts. So it’s not like you are not originating your own thoughts, it’s not coming from AI, it’s, it’s what you, what you… the Holy Spirit has downloaded to you. It’s through your time of study and it’s great. And you know, when I used it and my husband read it, he’s like, “How come it’s so good at this?” I said, “Well, first place, I put in good good prompts. And secondly, it filled in all the extra stuff, even verses that I didn’t have.” And he’s like, “How does it know to do that?” I’m like, “Well, because it’s read its Bible and it’s read its commentaries.” And so that’s the brilliance of it as well is that you have kind of a fact checker right away and or if you need more muscle of of what to support what you’re saying, it also is very helpful that way. So I think it’s, I think it will be a great tool for discipleship.

David Maples: [27:00] I think I keep going back to this thing you said, I’m thinking about meeting people where they are, not where you wish they were, but you deal with the people as you find them. And, um, I I think, I think that can be very powerful not just in repurposing the content that you’ve got, but then using that in such a way that helps you improve those things.

[27:22] So I guess, I guess we need to kind of move into a little bit more of… I know we need to talk about the kind of the pros and cons of doing these things, etc. But you’re, you’re right. You could use the tools to connect issues or connect scripture to like contemporary issues. And you could even use it in such a way that it helps you not be, to not turn people off.

[27:42] Obviously, we live in a world and and we’re all steeped in politics because we’ve turned into this 24/7 news cycle. There are real challenges in the world regardless of your political stripe or affiliation. Sometimes you’re talking about something that’s very poignant and scripture is right on point. And people will not listen or be unwilling to hear because of how they perceive it. And I think there’s probably ways to soften that in such a way to to make sure that, you know, if they’re blocking the message, my goal is to make sure that we can remove said block, because there’s something very, very important in that.

[28:23] So I think that’s one thing with it. Um, and then the other thing about it is, I think, you know, like your 52-week, you know, Bible challenge or Bible character challenge, it’s that, you know, it’s useful to connect people with the relevant resources. So if you want to know where are examples in the Bible of where people talked about breaking bread with other people and sharing… I mean, I’m sure there’s hundreds of examples in the Bible and all I can think of is like New Testament stuff right now, right? But there’s probably an entire narrative thread there that the AI could help me come up with for whatever reason and and help show other things to it.

[28:59] I do think it’s interesting. I think one thing AI could help you do is not cherry pick a little just little scripture passages that just deal with you. And and I think that could be very valuable, especially in in hearing the context of the entire concept, right? It’s not just the… you don’t just read one gospel, you know, you read all them in Acts and then you read the letters and all those things are important, right?

[29:21] But I’ve thought about like, I’ve thought about, been thinking a lot about how you could use this really to communicate with others. So, but if we’re back to talking about discipleship, what, where is the biggest place you see churches working on discipleship? Is it in the small groups now? Is it different than Sunday school? I mean, what, what would that look like now?

Carla Green: [29:39] I don’t think it’s Sunday school anymore. I mean, there are pockets, I mean, there’s all different kinds of churches and all different sizes, so of course there’s going to be different things. And I don’t have the research on it. Anecdotally, I would say it’s, I think some of us have moved away from small group… I don’t think small groups actually were ever really what most churches hoped. I was actually part of a very vibrant church that they had 70% in their small groups, which is unheard of. But COVID knocked that out, you know, as well.

[30:06] And so you end up filling those times in, you know, with something else. And I think that’s the challenge, no matter whether it’s a bigger thing at church or a that I also have seen… what I think is a really good model is something where you where you bring people together and have a bigger talk and then you have breakouts into smaller talks. And I think, and and I also believe like having shorter sections, like let’s just get together for six weeks and just do one topic. It’s not a lifetime commitment. People don’t want to commit to forever with these people because what if I don’t like them? I mean, let’s be honest, we don’t like everybody or just aren’t connecting or something.

[30:46] And so, so I think, I think we’re gonna, I think the church, the beauty of different, you know, churches is that you get to try lots of different things and different models and find out… because you’ll have some people that are more comfortable in bigger groups and you’ll have some people that would rather have that social time together in the homes.

[31:05] But what I think we’ve lost is it’s hard to have the people in the homes and the small groups when you haven’t discipled the leaders. And so we have to start with leaders. Like, who are, who are you raising up in your church? Otherwise, you know, the ministry, the pastors are going to get burnt out because they’re spread too thin. Because Sunday seems like it comes every five days instead of every seven. And, uh, and so it’s very difficult. So I think concentrating on leadership programs that are specifically designed for how, how do others teach others? How do we shepherd others? How do we do is key. Um, and so whether that’s in a big setting or a home setting or an online setting and whatever, it’s all of it works. Um, Jesus did three, you know, Jesus took three disciples up to the Mount of Transfiguration. He, you know, worked with the 12, he worked with the 72, you know, he had other people that were following him. And so there wasn’t just one. Um, but I think that’s what we, but I think there needs to be a plan and a strategy.

David Maples: [32:10] I’ve been thinking a lot about kind of we live in, for lack of a better term, I feel like we live in, I don’t know if this is a real term, I’m going to make it up. I feel like we live in an attention economy right now. It’s that everything is competing for our time, everything is trying to ask us… what you said, the kids are in… the kids aren’t playing one sport. I mean, growing up, you get to play like one sport each season. Now kids are in five things and dance and they play the piano. And that seems, I mean, I don’t know how you’d be good at all of that at the same time and still be good at school, but I digress.

[32:44] The thing that really gets me though is that it feels like we live in this area where this is an attention economy. I mean, if I were to pick up my phone right now… kids, and one of the other podcasts I’m involved in is like bridging this gap between kids, like 13-year-olds and their parents and demystifying technology, and it’s something I’m I’m doing. Um, and that’s kind of a hobby for me. It’s it’s more because for me, it’s it’s mind-blowing how these 13 and 14-year-olds are thinking and using technology. Some of it’s really, really wrong and some of it’s really rapidly showing how there’s a massive gap for a lot of the parents. You know?

[33:16] And so why am I talking about that? It’s because the other day I was talking to Reece, my co-host in that that pod, and the average kid in the United States right now is on social media for four to six hours a day. I don’t even know when you do that. I mean, how is that even possible? I mean, it’s like get outside and play, do something else.

[33:36] And I think, so I think, but I think this is a symptom. I don’t think it’s just the kids doing it, right? Parents will malign and complain about it, but the reality of it is parents are doing it too, right? It’s literally, we numb ourselves every evening. We come home, and I’m not just talking about with like vices, I’m talking about like we sit in front of the television, we eat in front of the television instead of communicating with our family. And now we spend—and this is not David’s soapbox or David’s rant, just my thoughts on it—but I think it’s it’s insidious and it’s pervasive and I feel it is currently infecting every…

[34:07] If you don’t have time to communicate… there’s a Bible verse on, I’m going to have to get better at this, it’s, I think it’s in Proverbs and it’s about iron sharpening iron. It’s about you deepen your spiritual relationship in communication with others. I believe it’s in Proverbs. I may be making that up, maybe it’s Psalms, I don’t know, it’s somewhere. I’ll ask, I’ll ask Ministry Maximizer in a second. I’ll have that by the end of the episode. I’ll do that when Carla’s talking next.

[34:30] But my point about it is, to this point, is this attention economy. And so people aren’t spending Sundays at church, they aren’t spending Wednesday evenings at church. My city had a Wednesday evening, there was always a a thing and there was a dinner at church. That was a big thing and I remember I helped clean in the kitchens every night and a lot of retainers and had to do the garbage at the end. That being said, um, that was important, I think. And so I’ve been thinking about technology things. Like when you said about groups, I’ve been thought about, like, okay, so we can’t just tell people to turn it all off because it doesn’t work, it just doesn’t.

[35:03] But how do we… look, eventually we would like them in the church and working on things on a one-to-one basis. But even with like applications like Zoom and GoTo, you could do a group, like a larger group where you talk about a theme, and you can break people out into these separate rooms. And they spend… so you could have a group of 20 people that comes together for something and you can break them out in the small groups of three and four to go discuss deeper and you come back together.

[35:27] And I think something like that, I’m not saying… I’m saying that is another option, especially when you’re talking about the limited time, because for every person who does that, there’s a much lower commitment of time because you don’t have to spend an hour getting to church and back. You’re not getting ready in the car and getting them ready. It’s something you can do on a Sunday evening.

[35:44] And yes, I think Sunday school and Bible study, I think all those things are useful. And I’m not saying, but I don’t know that the solution is to just say, “Ah, you got to shut it off.” Because some people will do it. But again, the message is being measured at the ear that hears. I want the person who says, “Maybe I can’t commit four hours to it, but I could commit two or an hour and a half.” Because the thing is, if I can get two hours of their time, that’s more time to build them, right? I don’t know. Maybe eventually they want to come in person. It’s just an idea. I’ve been thinking about that.

[36:13] And I’ve really, as you’ve been talking about this with me today, I’ve been thinking about kind of this this attention economy question. Like what does that look like? And and how do we use the AI for it? So I guess, I guess… your thoughts on that before we move into the next area?

Carla Green: [36:25] Well, I think it’s, it’s very sad. I mean, it is where we’re at, but I just think about growing up and yes, good old days, yes, she’s old, I get it. But but some of my best times and actually my best kid, my kids’ best times were being at church or being on a mission trip or being at church camp or like we lived and breathed church. And we’re probably not going to get that back.

[36:49] But I also think that a trend of of this life coach concept is happening, right? People are life coaches. Well, you have to ask yourself, why are there so many life coaches? And it’s, a lot of, they’re not being… like where else can they figure out how to do their practical applications and how to do life?

[37:07] And so I think also, and then also there’s this level of something I’m interested in is how does every… every person who calls on the name of Jesus and says, “I am a Christian,” how do I train you to be that in the marketplace? Because for me, right now, I’m also a the COO of a state planning law firm and chaplain. And I’ll tell you what, the people who walk through that door have the most need. They’re willing to share all of their problems. They’re willing to share everything that’s going on in their life and what their hopes and dreams are. We never got that at church. I mean, you’d have to be in a small group and meet with somebody for a long time.

[37:44] And so how can I meet them at work? Because work is designed to solve problems. And so how can I bring my faith into work in a practical way? And so I would love to train up a group of leaders that know how to do this. And so I think if there’s more application as to the why, and I’m not just getting knowledge or just sitting in church, I think we have to get outside the church walls. You know, church, we have to leave the church. And not because it’s not good, because it it is, but you’re not going to get people in.

[38:14] And so if we have a practical application for why you need to be discipled, like, you know, if I can be praying for my staff and my the people who walk through the door and I have meaning, more meaning in my work and I see God show up in my work and things happen, which we can talk about that later. I mean, there’s story after story of that, that is where I think people will get excited about… then they’ll come. I mean, you don’t ever have to advertise a fire. And so, when we, when you end up realizing that experience is available and this is a different level, and we if we have exciting discipleship that has practical application, I think people will make time for it, whether it’s on Zoom, whether it’s in person, people go where things change lives. And I mean, we love Cinderella stories, we love transformation. And so if we can see it and experience and be part of it, because that’s what God’s calling us to do—we don’t just get to watch, we get to participate. And so what does that look like? I think it’ll be there.

David Maples: [39:12] Something something you said really resonated with me. I did notice the whole growth in life coaches. And I think, like even in the eighties, I think, and in the nineties, I’m a kid, I grew up in the eighties, but there were these, these kind of quasi-religious groups. And I’m not trying… if anybody who listening and you believe in like the Nithfield group or EST or these other things, a lot of them were kind of quasi-religious, “Break down your life and improve your life, take control of it.” And I think it was originally, it was like a large group kind of thing.

[39:42] And then I feel like the life coach is not against anybody who’s a life coach, but I feel like that is again a symptom of what’s underlying a lot of this, right? Because a lot of these things are, I hate to say it, very biblical. There’s a lot of life coaching in the Bible.

Carla Green: [39:57] Right.

David Maples: [39:58] And it would not… when somebody goes to see a life coach and they say something that just seems so obvious, you know, and you’re like, “Oh, that’s Psalms, you know, 37:2,” you know, whatever it is, right? And, you know, and then they say this thing and you’re just like, “I don’t know, that’s, you know, this this is news to you because you’ve never seen it, you’ve never experienced it.” I’ve just thought about that.

[40:18] So, back to moving into discipleship. So let’s talk a little bit about like, how would we look at, how would we look at implementing, using artificial intelligence or something like Ministry Maximizer? What would be the the goals or or ways you would look at increasing digital discipleship in a church using artificial intelligence? We can have a discussion on this for a few minutes if you’d like, just kind of trying to figure out your thoughts on that.

Carla Green: [40:41] Well, if I was really stuck and I know how Ministry Maximizer works, I could put all of my, like, I could put my ministry, how it looks right now, what I’m looking for, and even ask it, like, “What are some ideas? What is my population of my church look like, the demographic, and what is my goal?” It will even bring back ideas of what you could do and what would make the most sense.

[41:03] I mean, there’s… I mean, I wouldn’t do that without praying about it and getting together with leaders. But a lot of times, it it it makes, it allows you to think outside the box of even what’s possible as well or something that you haven’t thought about. And so I think I would start there just for a, just like to clear my brain of what we’ve done in the past and not get stuck into, “Well, we’ve never done it that way before.”

David Maples: [41:27] I think there’s two or three points in there that we really need to talk about is kind of prompting. And we’ll build out some things in there into Ministry Maximizer that I don’t know if they’re already there yet or not, but if they aren’t, we’ll add them in.

[41:39] I think there’s a few things there. I think, first of all, you need to have a delineated or specific goal. Just asking it to go off and just, “Ah, blah, blah, blah, here’s my problem.” It needs to have a goal or objective because it’s looking for a win state. These machines are kind of trained from, at a very basic level, they’re trained in a… there needs to be a win state to achieve the outcome. And unless you give them a defined goal or something you’re trying to achieve, it’s going to spit back a lot of kind of randomness to you, which might be fine if you’re just brainstorming. But I think giving it a specific goal is a thing. I think telling it challenges that you are facing is is very, very important.

[42:19] And the last one I’m going to ask is that this is one of the challenges I see or an ethical conundrum. As we have this attention economy, I’ve seen people and even studying up for this episode, I was reading and there were some applications out there saying get a customized spiritual pathway for you. And I’m concerned that that’s dangerous because… and I used that quote with iron sharpens iron, the idea with it is is that you want someone in the church not just to help guide you or help you find things, but you need to challenge yourself.

[42:51] One of the popes said, “You were not put here for comfort, you were put here to be great.” And I, I don’t, I don’t come from a Catholic tradition, but I always love that quote. I was like, you know, “You were not made for comfort, you were made for greatness.” And because of that, I think it’s incumbent upon ourselves to challenge ourselves. And I think one of my challenges with AI, and as we’re showing you how to use these tools or Ministry Maximizer, I want to reinforce the idea that I think you need to use it to challenge you a bit or just say, “Hey, is there a way I haven’t thought about this before?” And and don’t just take… you need to, you need to pray about the answers it gives you. I think you need to to really kind of line them up with your faith and philosophy. Because I’m concerned that someone might just… it’s kind of hitting that easy button, like, “Oh, easy. Here’s the answer, the outcome.” And the reality of it is, I think the point about being in the church or being in the faith a lot of times is to have someone else challenge you in some way. Jesus challenged a lot of people.

Carla Green: [43:48] And I think that’s a good point because these smaller churches may not have the staff to challenge. I mean, a church I was at, we had a whole preaching team that we challenged what people were doing. So, hoping to not to be rude or, um, cantankerous, but just, we wanted to make sure that they had all the objections of their sermon before they went out to give their sermon so that they could put some of that in and already have the answers, which you could do that with with AI, you know, if you’re a smaller church and you don’t have that around you to, or have the time, you know, to get a bunch of people around you, then you could put that in and and do that as well. And I think that’s, that’s very valuable too. But you’re absolutely right, it’s a, it’s a starting point, it’s a, it’s a helping you finish. It’s not to take out the Holy Spirit by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I’m hoping the Holy Spirit will use it for you as well and to help you to move forward.

David Maples: [44:42] I think the other thing I wanted to talk about… So stuff like Ministry Maximizer or something churches can get into very inexpensively and you can go to ministrymaximizer.com and check it out or follow us, we’d be glad to let you know some more things about it. I think there’s a lot of other options out there. And I think there’s a lot of options out there for things to help with… there’s a whole bunch of these little bitty, I’m going to call them AI wrappers, for lack of a better term. That means it’s something that wraps around the AI and it’s really a very thinly layered thing. Like it just gives you a different user interface and it might make things easier. But at the same time, they don’t really have… you can’t really have it… they don’t really have a challenge button, you know, just like, “Challenge this idea, or challenge this theory, or give me… play devil’s advocate on this idea.” I think that’s the the natural parlance that we use for these things. But the idea with is just trying to figure out what these things are. I think that’s really important.

[45:34] I think it’s also important for people to understand that the machines do hallucinate and they do provide information, factual error things. So I think even if you’re using it to help generate a sermon, um, probably go double check some of the things about it, etc, to make sure, um, that it is providing feedback and information to you in a way that you can, you can make sure it’s correct. The last thing you want to do with there is get up, get up there and preach on Sunday and, you know, just making up something. It’s like, I’m going to quote from the book of Hezekiah and you’re like, “Wait, there’s not a book…”

Carla Green: [46:09] He’s in the Bible, not the book. He’s in the Bible.

David Maples: [46:12] In the Bible. Yeah, exactly.

Carla Green: [46:14] So, and I think I like, I mean, you’ve said this before in other arenas, David, that you’re responsible for everything that you say. So even if it’s coming from AI, like you’re responsible for it. And so you need to to do that. I don’t know if that’s exactly the quote that you said, but it made me think like you have to be able to do that. So I, you know, even doing some of my doctoral work, like I might ask it a question, but if I can’t go back and prove it, I can’t use it. You know, that’s just, you know, it’s like, “Okay, well, that was a nice thought, but I can’t use that.” So I might dig deeper to see if I can find it, but… So yeah, you have to be able to, you know, to fact-check that.

David Maples: [46:51] “As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.” Proverbs 27:17.

Carla Green: [46:57] There you go. Good job. You knew it was in Proverbs.

David Maples: [47:00] I didn’t know. It was a P-book, which is like, it’s like Proverbs or Psalms. I mean, that’s that’s really it, right?

Carla Green: [47:07] Yeah, I’m pretty sure those are the only P-books.

David Maples: [47:09] I think that’s it. Well, I just, I just remember and I was just like, “Man, there’s so much good stuff in in Proverbs.” Like that’s just, like if you’re going to spend like, if you’re going to spend a month with one book, I’m just like, this is a personal, personal thought, Proverbs is a great place to spend a month. It just really is.

Carla Green: [47:25] Well, and actually it has 31 chapters, so if you do one a day…

David Maples: [47:29] I did not realize that.

Carla Green: [47:31] Yeah, so a lot of people will do Proverbs every month and they’ll read a proverb every day and then they get through it in a month.

David Maples: [47:36] I just made that up, but, you know.

Carla Green: [47:38] Exactly.

David Maples: [47:39] But then again, I don’t know all this stuff. Hey, I’m, I’m here as the AI person. That’s, that’s all I’m here to do. So…

Carla Green: [47:45] Maybe for now.

David Maples: [47:46] Yeah, so for right now. So I guess the question is as we kind of wrap down this episode a little bit. So I think we, we need to probably have a deeper dive on discipleship at some point as we start building out some of these new things for it, etc. You know, how does this look like? What does this look like for a church?

[48:02] And I think one of the things, the probably the easy thing you could do is is crank up Ministry Maximizer or something like that and tell it what your current plan for discipleship in your church is. What are you currently doing? What do you want more of? I think asking it, what’s working for you and what’s not? Where are their gaps? And just using that as an easy way to kind of bounce… and if you’re a small church and you don’t have ten people on your staff to bounce off of, I think it’s a really good way to start at.

[48:29] And then you use that and challenge yourselves and then I think the next thing people have to think about is if you’re going to introduce it to your church, how do you do it in a way? Like I I think a lot of these things are, you do them a step at a time. You know, small steps, you know, and you can do them pretty quickly. But you go ahead and introduce things. If you come in with a full-fledged 50-page plan, you know, to introduce on Sunday morning that they’ve not heard anything about, they’re probably going to say, “Hey, hold on a minute.”

Carla Green: [48:55] “What are we doing?”

David Maples: [48:57] But I do think there are definite ways to do this. And I think one of the cool things that churches can do is it can help increase their velocity. You know, you don’t… So to Carla’s point, her 52-week thing, she said, you know, last year she didn’t have a ton of extra time to do this stuff, right? You know, and if you’re able to have an hour or two a week, you can punch way above your weight. You can get outputs that are a dozen hours. How many people out there, if you could get 12 hours back for every one hour you invested, would you not do that?

Carla Green: [49:28] Mhm.

David Maples: [49:29] I tell you, I would do it, I would do it in a second if I could. Just just the the quickest way possible to kind of introduce these things to people. And I think that’s probably really powerful.

Carla Green: [49:40] Well, and on that note, just let me add, like if you got 12 hours back for one hour in, if you used half of that to help build relationships with others, how much further along would your discipleship program be as well?

David Maples: [49:54] So I think, I think that’s a note we should probably end on for this episode. If you can’t, if you are looking at implementing technology or you need a plan of action for your church, Carla Green is my go-to person. I think I would, I would literally be getting her on speed dial. And we have all of her contact information, you can find it at ministrymaximizerpodcast.com. You could send in a, uh, you could fill out a form request and definitely get in touch with her and she can talk about her organization and things that she does for churches. And I I would highly encourage everyone to do that.

[50:25] But more than that, we’re going to have a lot of great stuff coming up on the show. So our next episode is going to be about, it’s going to be beyond live streaming. I think we kind of teased that a little bit this week. You know, the virtual church beyond basic online services. We’re going to be discussing how you really create like an interactive and engaging kind of church experience, not just, not just a regular thing, but we’re going to talk about other ways to do this. So we talked a little bit today about possibly having your groups and being able to break out in those kind of things, providing those kind of activities online.

[50:58] And I want to make sure that listeners understand, and Carla and I have talked about this, this is a “yes, and” podcast. It’s not “yes, but,” it’s not “yes, instead of,” it’s “how do we add technology and artificial intelligence to expand our reach? How do we use it to multiply our efforts and not just replace them?” Because as Carla said, I think in our first episode, eventually you want people to come back into the church. Great fellowship happens in person, period. Not saying all these other things aren’t wonderful tools, but they are just that, they are tools.

[51:35] And with that, the next episode, we’re really excited about. Coming up after that, we’re going to be talking about artificial intelligence and pastoral care. Really, that’s going to be your pastor-centric kind of episode. It’s going to be more about like the unique challenges facing pastors, etc. And then I think a follow-up episode, it’d be nice to get like two or three pastors on that we could just interview. Uh, if you’re interested in being interviewed for one of those episodes, we’d love to talk to you.

[52:00] But we were talking about maybe having a small section where we could have breakouts or extra deeper dives into some of these things where we can dive into there. Because Carla does consulting for churches, I work with a lot of different business owners, but a lot of times you need to talk to those actual people because they’re going to have a better story and a better way of explaining how things work for them and the challenges they face. We can read books all day long, but until you actually talk to the people, you don’t…

Carla Green: [52:25] And I think along with this episode too, I don’t know if it’s an addition or with that, another episode or part of that pastoral one is maybe, um, bringing life coaches in too, that work, you know, with how to, how they can use Ministry Maximizer when they get into these situations as well.

David Maples: [52:43] That’s actually a good point because there are… so you always wonder when you run into somebody who’s like a life coach, “What informed your tradition? What rule set, what book are you coming from? Where did you get your information?” Same thing with business coaches. We run into business coaches all the time, and the challenge with business coaches, just like anything else, is that if they have a particular school of thought, they’ll often work from that rule book, which may or may not work for you and your particular application. So those things are actually very important.

[53:11] So, anything else, Carla, you’d like to add to this episode?

Carla Green: [53:14] No, I think it’s been a great episode. Thanks. Thanks for, thanks for what you do.

David Maples: [53:19] Oh, I mean, hey, I’m just glad to be along for the ride. So with that, you’ve wasted another perfectly good hour with us. We thank you for your time. I, I just. But the reality of it is is that we appreciate you listening. We love your comments. If you’ve found something here useful or would like to know something you’d like us to add to the conversation, please reach out to us. You can reach us at ministrymaximizerpodcast.com. You can listen to this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, you can watch the video of it on YouTube, or find it at any great place that podcasts are listened to. We would appreciate a thumbs up or five stars. And as always, if you’d share this with your friends and your loved ones and your church, we would appreciate the outreach.

[54:00] With that, I’m David.

Carla Green: [54:01] And I’m Carla.

David Maples: [54:02] You have a great week out there.

Producer: [54:04] Hey everyone, it’s the producer here. Thanks for listening. If you’ve made it this far, be sure to check out ministrymaximizer.com. Transform your ministry with AI tools that help you craft your sermons, increase outreach, and spread the good news of the kingdom. Sign up today at ministrymaximizer.com. That’s ministrymaximizer.com.